Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: GC7 on October 21, 2010, 05:12:57 PM
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As the cold weather is approaching here in the northeast I want to insulate my hottop roaster as an experiment. I’ve found that winter roasting is a chore on my screened in enclosed back porch in freezing temperatures and my profiles are affected by the extra heat I need to use to get similar roast times.
I found this insulation material which was mentioned in previous discussions over on HB.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9323k21/=9dm0kb (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9323k21/=9dm0kb)
It’s a 1/8 thick by 16 inch fiberglass paper that is good up to 1200*F. My question is how to best fix it to the body of the HotTop roaster so as to optimally use the insulation properties of the paper? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. As the roll is 10 feet and I’d need only a fraction of that I’d be happy to send to other HotTop usersfor cost plus shipping.
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I came across people on HB using kaowool to insulate boilers, and think it would work for a HotTop too. It looks to have more insulating properties than the paper, and there's a few places that will sell it in 1'x2' pieces.
http://xrl.in/6jfs (http://xrl.in/6jfs)
Perhaps several wire loops would hold it to the wire heat shield around your roaster.
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Would you just wrap it around the exterior of the chamber?
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My approach to cold weather roasting is slightly lower tech ;)
(http://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/content_images/122/Cardboardbox.jpg)
Just put the roaster in the box and close the flaps loosely. The temp inside the box is high enough during roasting so that I can get a normal roast well at below freezing. I don't have a hottop, but I imagine that it would work similarly to my turbo-crazy.
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Kaowool is great stuff, cheap and easy to work with. The dust off kaowool is dangerous, if you put it on the outside of the roaster cover it with something, maybe aluminum flashing.
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Kaowool is great stuff, cheap and easy to work with. The dust off kaowool is dangerous, if you put it on the outside of the roaster cover it with something, maybe aluminum flashing.
Or, some of that metalic tape...
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Good advice Ringo! Not good for breathing and it definitely needs to be covered.
(happy to see others that work with insulation from Benbrook, Texas)
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Thanks for all the input so far. The wire loops should work well enough.
I'm not keen on using something that could leach off toxic dust. I was thinking of a form fitting sheet with a cutout for the upper filter and bean entry shoot (that also holds my thermocouple ala RandyG) that could have a separate removable piece to cover that if necessary. I used to use a cardboard box with my old popper-variac setup but the potential for fires with the HotTop and a carton can't be ignored so that option is out.
I think I just need to insulate well enough so that the heating element is not required to be on full power and local ET's can resemble those used in "normal" roasting conditions. I may just try the paper and wire loops to hold it in place.
I'll report back sometime in the future with the changes to the roast profiles.
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I may have used too strong of a word, I would use kaowool on a hottop if I owned one. I would just put the metal tape around the outside. This stuff is used everywere on boilers, ceramic kilns, wood stoves. Its is safe if used the correct way.
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Well I ordered the fiberglass paper sheet from McMaster to try with my hottop.
I'll report back when I have enough feedback.
I will probably have 7-8 feet X 16 inches spare to distribute to anyone who wants to try it.
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I may do this to my HT this winter. If I do I'll use foil and fiberglass duct insulation (http://www.lowes.com/pd_179375-1410-SP55_4294858190+4294965231+5003696__?catalogId=10051&productId=3136375&N=4294858190+4294965231+5003696&identifier=10+15&langId=-1&Ns=p_product_quantity_sold|1&storeId=10151&searchQueryType=1&ddkey=http:SearchCatalog). It comes in 12" wide rolls and is easy to work with.
I'd also get the foil-backed tape (http://www.lowes.com/pd_237724-56131-148068_4294856872+5003697_4294937087_?productId=3077865&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl_Minwax_4294856872%2B5003697_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1) to seal it.
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I wanted something that was not bulky/thick. I also think that minimal insulation will work nicely as a towel can change a roast profile especially if it blocksthe upper filter - (note that this is a HUGE fire hazard that I do not recommend trying).
Tex - That tape looks good too. Will the glue underside of the tape withstand the heat of the roaster if its used at the border of the insulation and metal HotTop roaster siding?
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I may do this to my HT this winter. If I do I'll use foil and fiberglass duct insulation ([url]http://www.lowes.com/pd_179375-1410-SP55_4294858190+4294965231+5003696__?catalogId=10051&productId=3136375&N=4294858190+4294965231+5003696&identifier=10+15&langId=-1&Ns=p_product_quantity_sold[/url]|1&storeId=10151&searchQueryType=1&ddkey=http:SearchCatalog). It comes in 12" wide rolls and is easy to work with.
I'd also get the foil-backed tape ([url]http://www.lowes.com/pd_237724-56131-148068_4294856872+5003697_4294937087_?productId=3077865&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr[/url]|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl_Minwax_4294856872%2B5003697_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1) to seal it.
I'd do some research as to how that insulation will handle high temps.
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I wanted something that was not bulky/thick. I also think that minimal insulation will work nicely as a towel can change a roast profile especially if it blocksthe upper filter - (note that this is a HUGE fire hazard that I do not recommend trying).
Tex - That tape looks good too. Will the glue underside of the tape withstand the heat of the roaster if its used at the border of the insulation and metal HotTop roaster siding?
I'll let you know after I try it, but considering it'll be on the outside of the insulation, I'm thinking it won't get too hot. If it does I'll have some friends check for USA surplus - they have some tape used on the shuttle and ISS that's good to unbelievable temp extremes.
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I'm opting for a fiberglass welding blanket to use with my RK Drum setup this winter.
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I may do this to my HT this winter. If I do I'll use foil and fiberglass duct insulation ([url]http://www.lowes.com/pd_179375-1410-SP55_4294858190+4294965231+5003696__?catalogId=10051&productId=3136375&N=4294858190+4294965231+5003696&identifier=10+15&langId=-1&Ns=p_product_quantity_sold[/url]|1&storeId=10151&searchQueryType=1&ddkey=http:SearchCatalog). It comes in 12" wide rolls and is easy to work with.
I'd also get the foil-backed tape ([url]http://www.lowes.com/pd_237724-56131-148068_4294856872+5003697_4294937087_?productId=3077865&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr[/url]|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl_Minwax_4294856872%2B5003697_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1) to seal it.
I'd do some research as to how that insulation will handle high temps.
Thanks for reminding me peter; maybe I'd better take some readings to make sure? I've used it to insulate boilers to 300°F, so the exterior of the HT should be OK. I also have some melamine insulation that might work.
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Thanks for reminding me peter; maybe I'd better take some readings to make sure?
Now, Tex... that's twice in less than a week that you've been agreeable and congenial. Did you get religion, or what? If you start treating Susan kindly too, we're going to send the men in the white jackets to come and take you away.
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Thanks for reminding me peter; maybe I'd better take some readings to make sure?
Now, Tex... that's twice in less than a week that you've been agreeable and congenial. Did you get religion, or what? If you start treating Susan kindly too, we're going to send the men in the white jackets to come and take you away.
Thanks for reminding me yet again peter! I'll take corrective action immediately! :argue: Me be nice to Susan after all the mean things she's said about you? Never, not even if they are true!
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Thanks for reminding me peter; maybe I'd better take some readings to make sure?
Now, Tex... that's twice in less than a week that you've been agreeable and congenial. Did you get religion, or what? If you start treating Susan kindly too, we're going to send the men in the white jackets to come and take you away.
Thanks for reminding me yet again peter! I'll take corrective action immediately! :argue: Me be nice to Susan after all the mean things she's said about you? Never, not even if they are true!
(http://fusedfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/harvey7e18cb7wy7.jpg)
;)
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(http://fusedfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/harvey7e18cb7wy7.jpg)
Awww..., Isn't that a cute pookah? Hello Harvey, long time no see? 8)
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Well I got what I needed to insulate the HotTop and thought I'd report on my progress.
I'm pleased with the fiberglass paper insulation. It's easy to work with and cut. I choose to use some extreme temperature foil tape to maximize the chance this will last if my profiles are good in cooler ambient temperatures. I have a cutout for the top filter to cover it as needed and I can do so for the vents on the side as well. I do not know how this change in air flow would affect roasts. I guess we will see as colder weather decends on us and if preliminary results are encouraging as to profiles and heat requirements in different ambient temperatures out on the enclosed porch.
Here are a few photos
(http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/GeoffreyC/IMG_0879.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/GeoffreyC/IMG_0880.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/GeoffreyC/IMG_0881.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/GeoffreyC/IMG_0882.jpg)
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Nicely done ... let us know how it works "in the field".
:)
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Here are the results of my first pre-heat test.
Its 55* here on the porch and the voltage with the HotTop heater running is 117.2-118 which is normal for that outlet.
My brew coffee profile uses maximal time (25 min) and temp (428*) and I start the roaster. At the beep when it hits 167* on the HotTop display I reduce heat to 7 and without fan let the ET as shown on my bean temperature probe wait until it shows 350* (+/- 5*) which happens at 21’ 30†on the display when I drop the beans and raise the heater to 8 or 9 to dry beans depending on profile. With the insulation I really did not know what to expect but possibly to reach 350* sooner. However, I did not see that happen. The insulation is also quite hot on the foil as well. We will see if I need an additional layer with this stuff. The real test will be when the roasting ambient temperatures go below 40-45* and I do a real roast.
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Way to go, Einstein. :D
I would expect the advantage to your project to be how it roasts in the wind, maybe more than simply holding heat in.
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I'm no Einstein but I do greatly admire his humanity and especially his ability to simplify very complicated topics to the point where he could educate everyone about his theories. Great minds and great people have the ability to simplify and I try as best I can to emulate that in what I do. Weak minds and those trying to impress will complicate everything usually because they don't fully understand the topic.
I did my first test roast with the insulation and my preliminary results are very encouraging. While the time to get the ET to where I wanted o drop the beans did not change using the same program, I did get to first crack significantly sooner even lowering heat after drying (from what I usually use). I did however over-react and lower the heat at first crack more then necessary and stalled the roast for a minute or so at about bean temprature 407* towards the end of first before recovering with more heat added. I think with some patience playing with the heat, this modification will improve my cold weather roasting.
More detailed data will be forthcoming with my next roasts.
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I thought I would report on my cooler temperature roasts with the insulated HotTop. It’s 45* out on the enclosed porch and no golf this weekend so I have time to roast. The voltages are all normal and within 1 degree of standard HotTop use.
My first roast was Organic Mexican Oaxaca HG (my standard 170 gm load with 10 minute time to first crack being standard). My prewarm up was as expected and reported last time where at 21’ 30†on the HotTop display I dropped the beans at ET 340*. I watched the bean temperature thermocouple carefully using my typical profile. Turn temperature was fine as was drying period but I needed to lower the heat after drying to prevent too steep a ramp and too fast onset to first crack. It seems that the insulation does indeed preserve heat even in these cooler ambient temperatures. I’d estimate that I could have reached first crack a good minute sooner without adding any power to the heat coils had I wanted to do so. Slowing the roast and keeping about a 10 degree per minute rise in temperatures to complete the roast is a bit tricky but certainly doable by paying attention to the heat levels.
To summarize, this insulation modification seems to work well to enable modest heat application to the beans that keeps MET and ET’s within ranges that don’t hurt the beans. I see no tipping, burning or defects in the roast. I’m very pleased so far.
I did a second roast with Ethiopian Amaro Gayo. I tried to let it ramp a bit faster as it’s a harder bean and I wanted a brighter flavor. I got it to first crack at 9 ½ minutes and was able to slow it down to my 425* finish. I had to watch the ET getting a bit higher than the first roast. Still no burning but one needs to watch the heat carefully.
The best part – TASTING- to follow.
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I’ve had some time to do quite a few roasts with ambient temperatures into the thirties and with a bit of wind blowing through the screened porch where the roaster lives. These types of conditions would have required altering the heat input and profiles of my uninsulated hottop. I was never really very happy with my winter roasts.
I must say that I continue to be pleased with this modification. The effects of the insulation as suggested previously are I believe mostly in holding heat within the drum. This plays less of a role in preheating the roaster and in drying phase for the first few minutes than the ramp up to first crack and coasting to the finish which are really enhanced and the heat retention is noticeable. You need to be on your toes with the heat input and watching environmental temperatures. I am now dropping beans at about 330* to 340* and getting turn temperatures of 175*-180* at 80 sec. after dropping the beans. I manipulate the heat to arrive at first crack from 9 ½ minutes to 10 ½ minutes (I could easily go faster – could not do that easily without the insulation even in warmer ambient temperatures). I am now able to use very low (3-5) heat input to finish most roasts 3-5 minutes after first crack depending on if the beans are for brew or espresso and how dark I want to take it.
Tasting is really the final examination for the modification and I can honestly say that my roasts have never been better. Brewed coffee has the zip and acidity I’ve expected but sometimes didn’t achieve in the past and espresso retains the expected properties of the bean or blend. I’d recommend trying this if you are stuck roasting with a hottop in a cold garage or porch.
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Good reminder, thx. I'm gonna have to get on this one. We had nearly 10 days of -30 Celsius and I couldn't roast, it was annoying. Eventually it got up to zero and I blasted off 3.5lbs for myself and neighbor.
I'm gonna head over to Home Depot in the next few days to see if I can come up with something close to your brilliance.
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Sean
I purchased the tape at Home Depot. They have lots of thicker insulation there too but nothing like the thin stuff I purcheased. In your climate perhaps the thicker stuff would be more suitable. If you want to try the material I bought I would be happy to put a couple of feet in an envelope and send it regular mail.
At -30* C I would not be thinking about my roaster. I'd be keeping my butt warm next to a fireplace praying for spring!
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At what temps are you guys finding problems start when roasting with the HT and at what point is it a serious problem?
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At what temps are you guys finding problems start when roasting with the HT and at what point is it a serious problem?
I've roasted in some insanely cold temps and still got better coffee than the stuff I can buy retail, but I'm liking the GC7 approach of improving the winter results. I'm not sure at what temp things start to slip but there's no doubt super cold temps drag the roast out.
I roasted all last winter on the back deck and mainly I tried to stay away from windy days.
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I think wind is the main culprit in drawing heat away from the roaster; some light insulation plus a good wind break should do the trick. That, and maybe a smaller batch?
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I agree that wind will draw away heat and affect roasts in lower temperatures.
In the past, when temperatures got to the freezing point and below I needed to alter profiles and use higher power to the heating elements to move things along for reasonable roast times. The trouble I think with that is that you may get local very hot spots that could damage/burn some beans and other cooler spots in the drum. That's just a theory but my brew roasts especially were never quite as good in winter and especially well below freezing. Hopefully this mod will continue to work as the local temperatures here in NY drop further.
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Good call GC7, I should have done this a long time ago.
Here's a quick iPhone shot while the insulated mod did it's thing. From just a couple of roasts today I can see that the roaster is performing differently and I like what I see. Of course the proof is in the pudding, so I'll know on the weekend.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5090/5259602490_e5ebb9f8e9_o.jpg)
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Nce job Sean.
What inslation did you wind up using and did you cover the vents on the side not shown in your photo. I left them uncovered to try to keep air and heat flow relatively unchanged from the uninsulated roaster.
I think you will find the runup to first crack and subsequent finish of the roast to be most affected/improved by the cold weather mod.
Geoffrey
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Nce job Sean.
What inslation did you wind up using and did you cover the vents on the side not shown in your photo. I left them uncovered to try to keep air and heat flow relatively unchanged from the uninsulated roaster.
I think you will find the runup to first crack and subsequent finish of the roast to be most affected/improved by the cold weather mod.
Geoffrey
I grabbed some stuff from Home Depot, it was flexible aluminum surface on both sides with some dead air space created between the two surface using a honeycomb matrix of rigid plastic. I taped it all in place using the flexible aluminum duct work tape. I covered the vents on the other side with the aluminum tape and then used a sharp knife to slit through it and expose the vents.
So far I'm noticing I can run the roaster at a lower heat setting and stretch out the finish a bit nicer. The beans look good and I'm a bit excited to check them out in a few days. The Kenya Kieni I did a few hours ago will get hit with a pourover in 48hrs, it should be an interesting test. I've got my fingers crossed and the lucky rabbit's foot is in effect.
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Of course the proof is in the pudding, so I'll know on the weekend.
I have keen interest in what you find in the shots.
Update mandatory. 8)
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You know it.
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Had a pourover of the Kenya Kieni at lunchtime, not quite 48hrs post-roast. Gotta say I'm really liking what I tasted in the cup, of course this is not a fair comparison against pre-mod Kieni as I didn't have a side by side pre and post-mod cup at lunchtime. But, based on what I tasted it seems like the cup had more 'transparency', 'clarity' and better stage presence vs. pre-mod.
It's going to take quite a few roasts to nail it down for a definitive opinion but so far so good.
All hail GC7!
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
We'll have enough hardware, but if you bring a pound of homeroast you're in. ;-)
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
We'll have enough hardware, but if you bring a pound of homeroast you're in. ;-)
How about 2 turtle doves?
???
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
We'll have enough hardware, but if you bring a pound of homeroast you're in. ;-)
How about 2 turtle doves?
???
It's 2 jugs of milk, get with the program. ;-)
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
We'll have enough hardware, but if you bring a pound of homeroast you're in. ;-)
How about 2 turtle doves?
???
It's 2 jugs of milk, get with the program. ;-)
True ... what was I thinking ... turtle doves don't go great with espresso ... unless they are the chocolate kind.
:-X
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All hail GC7!
:-X ;D Thanks Sean. I showed that to the wife and she laughed and said that perhaps I should move in with you. :P
I continue to be impressed with this mod and the coffee resulting from my roasts. It's getting much colder here by the day so I hope the winter roasts continue with the same quality.
Haha, bring your grinder and espresso machine. ;-)
Hey, if that's all it takes, can I move in too? :angel:
We'll have enough hardware, but if you bring a pound of homeroast you're in. ;-)
How about 2 turtle doves?
???
It's 2 jugs of milk, get with the program. ;-)
Or eight maids a milking.
We'd have enough raw milk that way.
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All I want to say is that you guys that are moving in better not be eyeballing my bug out corner of the basement up there...
Don't even think about it.
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All I want to say is that you guys that are moving in better not be eyeballing my bug out corner of the basement up there...
Don't even think about it.
Always got your back, bro.
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Always got your back, bro.
Never in doubt... I was just letting the coffee zombies know what's up. ;)
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Always got your back, bro.
Never in doubt... I was just letting the coffee zombies know what's up. ;)
When the actual zombies invade it's always handy to have a few friendly coffee zombies manning the gunports.
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"It is vital that you do not panic."
Shaun Of The Dead Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfDUv3ZjH2k#)
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Had a shot of the 5 day old Kenya Kieni at noon and it was really good. Sweet, tangerine, peach, honey, floral nose, syrupy with a bit of zip in the acidity. Think honey, tangerines and peaches placed in a small pan and reduced on low heat then poured into a cup.
Similar to pre-mod Kieni but with a bit more acidity (good acidity) and a it more clarity.
Me like.
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Similar to pre-mod Kieni but with a bit more acidity (good acidity) and a it more clarity.
So what do you see happening in the roasts?
Was the pre mod taking longer to terminate roast...reach 1st crack...what are you seeing that the mod has changed?
If my plans work according to plan I will be grabbing a HT in late Jan - early Feb and need to know what's going on with this mod. ;)
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I think GC7 has a better understanding of what's happening from a technical perspective, all's I have is my nose and palate on some preliminary roasts. I've checked out the Kieni and a Senhora de Fatima shot and I like what I've got. Of course it's early days still.
I'll have a go at an Amaro Gayo in a day or two and then I'll be able to really get a handle on differences as I know that bean well.
One thing I can say, I'm running the heating element a bit lower so I'm not seeing any divots in the beans and I **think** the roasting chamber doesn't have as much opportunity to get smoke impacted. I'm running the heater at 10-20% less heat than previously and I'm keeping the fan manipulation at approx the same - the the smoke is probably clearing faster. Perhaps the reason for a more focused sound stage. A bit more reflective surface a little less velvet. ;-)
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I'm running the heater at 10-20% less heat than previously and I'm keeping the fan manipulation at approx the same - the the smoke is probably clearing faster.
I see.
Lower temps required to hit the marks because of the ambient/insulated difference.
Lower chamber temps and bean surface temps....
I can dig it.
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John
I did 6 more roasts this morning with temperatures in the mid 20's on the porch. I think Sean is correct and I would add that it appears to be easier to control the internal environmental temperature of the drum chamber as its not nearly as subject to outside temperature and wind drawing heat away from the beans. When the heat is drawn away you need to then add more power to the heating element and my belief is that can cause local burning or hot spots as you try to compensate. The insulation helps to make the heat even throughout the drum (perhaps dependent on you choice of fan and airflow rathe then the outside weather conditions).
My profile (~170 gm load) - All temps from my bean temperature thermocouple)
Preheat from time 25 min at heat 7 and no fan to time 21 min 30 sec (3 1/2 minutes) when the beans are added at temperature ~330-350) - heat goes to 9.
When BT is 300* add the fan to 1 and continue till about 1 minute before expected first crack when heat is lowered to 5. This is 9-10 minutes after drop - I streatch this for espresso roasts and keep it about 91/2 for brew.
I then play with the heat settings (usually 3-5) to keep steady increase (watching the BT thermocouple readout) to finish about 3-3 1/2 minutes later for brew (mostly BT ~425* my city+) - for espresso I stretch to 4- 4 1/2 minutes. Second crack on my BT thermocouple is usually about 438-440*
This profiling is MUCH easier in the cold with the insulation. In fact, I couldn't do it without it.