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Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: John F on August 07, 2011, 08:16:37 AM

Title: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 07, 2011, 08:16:37 AM
Alright lever heads....hook a brother up on short cutting the learning curve.


I've got a few questions about this vid.

1) He uses a max dose here. The basket is overfull and tamped down to what I expect is the max load for this double basket. I don't have an actual question about that yet but any general comments on dosing by gram or overfilling...shoot!

2) The preinfusion. Why does he do a double pump here? Looking at the warming flush it appears (to the clueless me) that one smooth trip down with the leaver and hold should be better than a double pump. Is there a preferred way to do the preinfusion with delivering the water and holding...do you just hold until you see drops of hold for a pre determined amount of time?

3) The pulls. It looks to me like the third pull is a disaster. I think I would have pulled the cup about .5 seconds into the third pull. Maybe the third pull gives you 5 drops of espresso before blonding. I can see that 2 pulls here looks better than three but considering the max dosing and going for max shot I think that 2 full pulls and 1/8 of the third pull is the absolute max and you would need to yank the cup.



Am I looking at this right?

Take a look at this vid and see what you think.

espresso (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3686433339075092164)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 07, 2011, 09:46:34 AM
Impossible to tell how many grams he is using.  The grinds compacted quickly so I don't think it weighed as much as you might think.

I would ignore his technique and look for another video.  I can't critique because I don't know what lever position opens the infusion. Your PVL will handle differently.  That looked like an Export, though unsure. My pre-infusion comes when the lever is at a 10.30 clock position.  I let that occur for ten seconds and then take one slow sweep down, using a sense of pressure to determine how much torque to apply.  Most of my shots run towards 30 seconds.

It will come naturally.  There are *no shortcuts* up this hill.  Climb the path, grasshopper.  Wave goodbye to the Gaggia...


I forgot, yours is a spring loaded lever.

B|Java, grasshopping as well.




Ponte Vecchio Lusso - Macchina da caffè a leva (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1wY9ThcQhk#)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 07, 2011, 10:18:22 AM
Your vid makes more sense to me..

Hold for preinfusion
Two gentle pulls.

I don't like what he is doing with that milk but shotwise I'm imagining this will be my starting point.

Also I am noticing there must be a dead area of the lever travel. From letting it go there looks to be some initial travel in all the PVL vids I'm watching that looks "dead".

That was a two pull shot into what looks like a 6-8 oz cup. It didn't look terribly washed out or anything...my hopes are up on a two pull double into a 5oz cup.  8)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 07, 2011, 10:32:50 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you come home, only to find a FedEx door tag, telling you that you need to sign and that they will be back tomorrow.



Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 07, 2011, 10:41:53 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you come home, only to find a FedEx door tag, telling you that you need to sign and that they will be back tomorrow.

Not gonna happen.

I told my wife yesterday to clear here schedule on Thursday and post up at the peephole on our door waiting for Mr. Brown.

I've also ordered some Red Bird. Fingers crossed I see it on Wed.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Tex on August 07, 2011, 10:57:48 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you come home, only to find a FedEx door tag, telling you that you need to sign and that they will be back tomorrow.

Not gonna happen.

I told my wife yesterday to clear here schedule on Thursday and post up at the peephole on our door waiting for Mr. Brown.

I've also ordered some Red Bird. Fingers crossed I see it on Wed.

I sent them an email to have it redirected to your Pearland address. No, you don't have to thank me! ;)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 07, 2011, 11:19:27 AM
I'll send the cat from your avatar to go thank you..  :P
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on August 07, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
Coles notes on the PVL, this should get you started:

- Prior to pulling any shots you will have have to let the machine come up to temp, once it does the boiler light will go out and then you need to bleed off the false pressure by opening the steam wand for approx 2-3secs. The boiler light will come back on. Then pull approx .5oz water via a lever pull in order to start the thermo heat through the grouphead otherwise the grouphead will remain cool. From first power on till you can pull the first shot will take approx 10mins depending on how much water you have in the boiler, less water in the boiler will take less time to pull a properly heated grouphead and stable shot.
- Approx 14-16gms in the basket. Fine grind will pull slow, coarse grind will pull fast (that's one of the biggest generalizations I've made all week). Remember that grind and dose work together (of course) but now the lever 'magic' comes into play and completely impacts the general rules of grind and dose. For now, keep things simple and stick to the recommended dose and a grind that will allow a shot in approx 25-35sec, following the other guidelines below.
- Very light and even tamp, approx 3-5lbs.
- With the PF out of the grouphead pull the lever down about halfway (prior to any water coming out) then insert the PF gently and lock as you are pulling the lever slowly all the way down and listen for the water draw.
- Hold the lever down for 3-5secs and then let the lever come up gently.
- As the first couple of drops tumble out, pull the lever down again very gently to the bottom of its travel and release, this will be known as the first lever pull which will produce approx .5oz of espresso.
- At some point as that first pull is doing it's thing you will have to think about going in for your second lever pull which will also produce approx .5oz of espresso. Where to intiate that second level pull is up to you but for now let the first lever pull almost complete its travel.

Throughout the pull cycle you will want to keep the stream out of the basket as smooth and uninterrupted as possible, a bottomless PF really helps.

Total espresso extraction will be approx 1oz. In small milk (less than a 5oz cup) you won't need any more espresso - believe me.

That will get you going for the first 2-3wks.

***Spoiler***

From this point forward ignore everything else I'm going to write until you've pulled at least 100 shots on the PVL. Use the Coles notes above to dial in your techniques and observe the PVL trends.

Now for the fun stuff (are you still ignoring this until you've pulled at least 2-3wks worth on the PVL)... are you? Of you are sneaking in here and using the stuff below prior to 100 pulls I'm gonna know and you are gonna be in so much trouble mister.

- Preinfusion is fun, you can manipulate it by holding the lever down longer or shorter, letting no drops come out or letting more drops come out before you go in for your first lever pull.
- First lever pull is fun, you can manipulate the profile of the shot by letting the lever stroke go almost all the way up or cutting the lever path short and going in for the second lever pull. You will see how impactful this is once you understand the pressures involved and how it speed things up or slows things down. That won't make any sense now until you are reading this again in approx 1mth.
- Essentially you will manipulate the shot via preinfusion and lever stroke play. While still interplaying grind against dose.

Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 07, 2011, 04:08:36 PM
In small milk (less than a 5oz cup) you won't need any more espresso - believe me.


I'm super happy to read those words.

Of course the rest of the words are going to get me off the start line so thanks a bunch but I'm still jazzed to read the above.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 07, 2011, 06:50:03 PM
May you soon have a happy start to your journey.

 :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 11, 2011, 07:31:00 PM
It has begun..
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 11, 2011, 07:37:55 PM
Enjoy the journey John.

Post your results.

 :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on August 11, 2011, 08:56:36 PM
Do it.

Do it.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 11, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
Do it.

Do it.

I've got no choice now...I'm sucked into the gravitational pull of the lever.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 12, 2011, 02:41:19 AM
It has begun..

...and there ain't no goin' back.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 12, 2011, 06:05:00 AM

...and there ain't no goin' back.

I believe you are correct.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Warrior372 on August 12, 2011, 06:49:53 AM
How were your morning shots?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 12, 2011, 07:34:09 AM
How were your morning shots?

In a word, worse.

I'm in the curve...gonna take a bit of time.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Tex on August 12, 2011, 09:24:39 AM

...and there ain't no goin' back.

I believe you are correct.

I've got a 5'er that says you'rr back with an electric pump within three years. Levers get tiresome, especially if you jam a thumb or cut your finger. I love my La Pavoni machines, and learned a lot from using them; but after using one every day for more than a decade I was happy to make the switch to a pumper. :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Warrior372 on August 12, 2011, 09:49:19 AM
I guess I beat the curve. I have been using them for 5 years and have bought and sold 5 or 6 HX pump machines machines due to less personal palate appeal ;) .

What I have always wondered is how many people have knocked out lower teeth because they had their commercial lever on a table / counter that was too low. Some of my commercial machines pack a punch when you pull down the lever without a loaded PF basket!
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Tex on August 12, 2011, 10:51:18 AM
I guess I beat the curve. I have been using them for 5 years and have bought and sold 5 or 6 HX pump machines machines due to less personal palate appeal ;) .

What I have always wondered is how many people have knocked out lower teeth because they had their commercial lever on a table / counter that was too low. Some of my commercial machines pack a punch when you pull down the lever without a loaded PF basket!

Or if they blow out the puck?
 
 I used the original Europiccola from the 60's until Gaggia came out with the original Baby in the 80's(??). It was really the only viable choice for espresso in the home for a long time. Problem was, there wasn't the emphasis on grinders then, so I bought preground from friends in Italy.
 
 Lever machines are cool, and they have a lot to teach about precision. But they can be problematic for us gimps.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 12, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the five year bit.  There's a certain sort of person who will gravitate to lever espresso machines, wet shaving, and fountain pens. 

Lever (✔)
Wet Shaving - brush and cup (✔)
Fountain Pen (✔)

B|Java
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Tex on August 12, 2011, 12:31:45 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the five year bit.  There's a certain sort of person who will gravitate to lever espresso machines, wet shaving, and fountain pens. 


Lever (✔)
Wet Shaving - brush and cup (✔)
Fountain Pen (✔)

B|Java


(http://jimfairthorne.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/statler-and-waldorf.jpg)

Yep, Lake Cheddar branch of the old farts club!


 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1icl0SE1Uhw/S82oBRgVyBI/AAAAAAAADh4/sA7c2kXm2zM/s1600/old+lady+bingo.jpg)

Ladies auxiliary.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 12, 2011, 12:47:57 PM


Yep, Lake Cheddar branch of the old farts club!

Ladies auxiliary.

I fully accept that.  Enjoyed the pic.

B|Java
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 07:30:07 AM
Here is an interesting thing....

I think I need a dosing funnel. I mean like "need" one.

I was fine dosing and distributing in a 55mm basket but with the 45mm I find that I'm trying to balance the coffee on top and it's not so easy. I think with a funnel I will be able to distribute better, hold my coffee in the basket and get my leveling tamp in with the G's I'm trying to put in.

Has anybody else seen a greater need for the funnel with the smaller baskets?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 07:54:36 AM
I guess I don't really use the dosing funnel for dosing, just to keep the grinds in the basket when grinding and taping it down.

I grind into a container and pour into the basket.

So I've got no problems there, but 14-15g of coffee sits pretty tall over the top of the PVL basket. In order to distribute it with the needle and tamp it I find that I have to hold my breath, stand on one foot, and turn off the ceiling fan in order not to loose some coffee...  :-\
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on August 13, 2011, 08:09:24 AM
I've never used a funnel with the PVL.

What grinder are you using?

I'm using the Vario and grind directly into the basket. If I need to tap the basket halfway through the grind to settle things in I do it. I also rotate the basket as the grind is going in to more evenly throw the coffee grinds.

Have you thought about grinding smaller (tighter) grinds? If you go finer the PVL will be able to handle it and the dose load will fit in easier. If you get to a point where you have ground a bit too fine you can ease up on the dose to 13.5gms.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 02:12:37 PM
I guess I don't really use the dosing funnel for dosing, just to keep the grinds in the basket when grinding and taping it down.

I grind into a container and pour into the basket.

So I've got no problems there, but 14-15g of coffee sits pretty tall over the top of the PVL basket. In order to distribute it with the needle and tamp it I find that I have to hold my breath, stand on one foot, and turn off the ceiling fan in order not to loose some coffee...  :-\

I will give you $350 for that 'thang you are having trouble with.  You pick up the shipping.

B|Java
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 02:27:38 PM
I will give you $350 for that 'thang you are having trouble with.

You mean the trouble of Tinfoil Bamboo collecting dust? I only want $200 for it.  ;)

I just learned that I need to get some shot glasses before taking any more pics but, from 3 min ago.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 13, 2011, 05:21:39 PM
Ada boy John ... keep pumping that lever.

 :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 07:12:24 PM
...

You mean the trouble of Tinfoil Bamboo collecting dust? I only want $200 for it.  ;)


Clearly not.  Don't insult a fellow lever-lover.  I was attempting to purchase that Italian brand (nose up in the air) lever that was presenting issues to you.  I wanted to permit you to return to the Gaggia.

Quote
I just learned that I need to get some shot glasses before taking any more pics but, from 3 min ago.


Grab some 3.2 oz'ers.  Perfect size to crest a great lever shot with some tight micro-frothed milk.  Wms Sonoma in your town has a set of 6, $15.
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/picardie-glass-tumbler/. (http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/picardie-glass-tumbler/.)  That size gave Jeff the exact ratio of 'presso:millk he enjoys.  He even forgot that they were made in France.


B|Java

Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 07:40:39 PM
[url]http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/picardie-glass-tumbler/.[/url] ([url]http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/picardie-glass-tumbler/.[/url]) 


You are freaking psychic..

I just got back from buying this.

 
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 07:45:37 PM
...
You are freaking psychic..

I just got back from buying this.

 

Actually, my daughter bends that way -- I don't.  I am the skeptic in the family of her edgy stuff.

But, Jeff is going to wig out.  Peter, your turn.  The Picardies are merveilleuse.

B|Java
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 07:48:08 PM
Next, I bet you will be buying a hand grinder.

B|Java


(http://grswingsets.com/images/Home_BoyOnSlide_524.jpg)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 08:01:07 PM
Next, I bet you will be buying a hand grinder.

Only if I can find a spiffy modern one that is under ~$100 and grinds very nice for the PVL.

But you could safely predict I'm not selling the Italian thing any time soon...do you see what's starting to happen over here?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: peter on August 13, 2011, 08:14:23 PM
Those are the perfect glasses for pouring small, very small, milk.  I have to see if they sell them individually, 'cuz I don't need six of them.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 08:20:31 PM
Those are the perfect glasses for pouring small, very small, milk. 

I'm thinking a Breve' would work very nicely in there.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Warrior372 on August 13, 2011, 08:23:27 PM
How did that shot in the last picture taste? Looking much better already. Peruse Orphan for a wide selection of well-priced hand grinders made for espresso.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 08:25:22 PM
How did that shot in the last picture taste? Looking much better already. Peruse Orphan for a wide selection of well-priced hand grinders made for espresso.

John, buy out Tex for one of his unused shares in the traveling Pharos road show.  Jump in line.  See if that floats the boat.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 08:34:47 PM
John, buy out Tex for one of his unused shares in the traveling Pharos road show.  Jump in line.  See if that floats the boat.

The Texan is hogging up shares?  :o
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on August 13, 2011, 08:40:16 PM

The Texan is hogging up shares?  :o

He had two -- shoulder is bothering him from the night when he went two rounds with Sonny Liston, so he is passing.  Snag one.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 08:42:29 PM
How did that shot in the last picture taste?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around these shots. I'm not sure exactly how to qualify them yet but short answer is good!  8)

I am understanding now that it was unnecessary for me to worry about reduced shot volume because these are not 58mm pump driven shots...they are 45mm lever shots. I'm almost positive I read those exact words but now I'm going "Oh...yeah, I get it now".

Early days but going with a stable lever bean like the Red Bird was a good call to eliminate a variable. A framework from Staylor, a ton of youtubes, and some good luck has me happy with were I am at for a newbie. 
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 13, 2011, 08:42:59 PM

The Texan is hogging up shares?  :o

He had two -- shoulder is bothering him from when he went two rounds with Sonny Liston that evening, so he is passing.  Snag one.

He just said that ... he was actually giving selflessly in hopes that a fellow GCBC member could take one of his turns.

 ;)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 13, 2011, 08:44:49 PM
How did that shot in the last picture taste?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around these shots. I'm not sure exactly how to qualify them yet but short answer is good!  8)

I am understanding now that it was unnecessary for me to worry about reduced shot volume because these are not 58mm pump driven shots...they are 45mm lever shots. I'm almost positive I read those exact words but now I'm going "Oh...yeah, I get it now".

Early days but going with a stable lever bean like the Red Bird was a good call to eliminate a variable. A framework from Staylor, a ton of youtubes, and some good luck has me happy with were I am at for a newbie.

How do you like the steam capability on the Vechio?

 :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 13, 2011, 08:50:14 PM
How do you like the steam capability on the Vechio?

It's like a 20 megaton steam bomb.

The machine design of keeping the boiler (3 litre) at steam temp gives you an absolutely irresponsible amount of steam.  ;D 
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 13, 2011, 08:54:28 PM
How do you like the steam capability on the Vechio?

It's like a 20 megaton steam bomb.

The machine design of keeping the boiler (3 litre) at steam temp gives you an absolutely irresponsible amount of steam.  ;D

Yeah ... that's like my Isomac Tea ll.

What I do to control it is to keep it at minimum volume.  If I let it go full steam I have no hope of controlling it.

 :'(
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: mp on August 14, 2011, 06:22:06 AM
Sounds like you guys need the perfect accessory, the Rexroth Steam Wand powered cleaning brush ([url]http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=GEBrushSteam&type=store[/url]) to use all that steaming power on your dispersion screen.


The dispersion screen is a snap to clean up.  A little soap and water and viola.

 :)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 20, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
- Very light and even tamp, approx 3-5lbs.
- With the PF out of the grouphead pull the lever down about halfway (prior to any water coming out) then insert the PF gently and lock as you are pulling the lever slowly all the way down and listen for the water draw.
- Hold the lever down for 3-5secs and then let the lever come up gently.
- As the first couple of drops tumble out, pull the lever down again very gently to the bottom of its travel and release, this will be known as the first lever pull which will produce approx .5oz of espresso.

I have found that adding a step has had a major impact in my shots.

If I do the initial 3-5 second pre-infusion but instead of letting the lever up for a few drops I let it up about 1/4 travel, go right back down and then let the lever go I get something that looks and feels very "right".

Without this extra lever action the travel/shot is faster. WIth the extra 1/4 pull everything tightens up considerably.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on August 20, 2011, 09:55:54 AM
Now what did I say... Not until at least 100 shots.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on August 20, 2011, 10:13:09 AM
Now what did I say... Not until at least 100 shots.

I didn't find it....it found me.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: grinderz on August 20, 2011, 12:07:03 PM
Why Does It Have To Be Wrong Or Right (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgbhiXp7hZs#)

 ;D
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on August 20, 2011, 09:52:00 PM
Now what did I say... Not until at least 100 shots.

I didn't find it....it found me.

;-)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 11, 2011, 04:28:03 PM
I've been having an ongoing issue with the second pull/Fellini move.

I'm just not happy with it.

I don't like how the coffee looks, I don't like how the mechanics and feel of going in for a second pull feel, and I have growing doubts that it's adding anything more than shot volume.

I'm going to start experimenting but has anybody gone to single pull (doubles)?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Ascholten on November 11, 2011, 04:37:04 PM
sounds to me like your machine might be inferior.  Better send it to me, ill take care of it for you since I am inferior in my technique... it'd be a perfect match  ;D

Aaron
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 11, 2011, 04:39:01 PM
sounds to me like your machine might be inferior.

Impossible....PVL is mighty, like Godzilla.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 11, 2011, 04:39:31 PM
Just so we are clear...

If you do a preinfusion pull, that water volume gets eaten up in the puck (pretty much) and so that pull doesn't count as part of the shot volume creation. The next pull creates approx .5floz and if you didn't pull again that's pretty much all you would have in the cup... ok there would be some minor fluid addition from the preinfusion pull, so maybe .6floz.

Another pull will bring your in-cup total to approx 1floz or a touch more (or less) depending on how much the coffee puck in the PF holds on to as a saturated mass.

Personally I don't think a 15gm dose resulting in a .5floz cup is the way to go with the PVL.

Maybe try capturing the first .5floz in a shot glass and then switching to another shot glass for the other .5floz. Taste them side by side and of course they will be different. The key is... the two cups require each other to create a balanced cup. And by balanced I don't mean in the SCAA sense, I mean in the 'what the espresso can offer' sense.

What is it that you don't like?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 11, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Just so we are clear...

If you do a preinfusion pull, that water volume gets eaten up in the puck (pretty much) and so that pull doesn't count as part of the shot volume creation. The next pull creates approx .5floz and if you didn't pull again that's pretty much all you would have in the cup... ok there would be some minor fluid addition from the preinfusion pull, so maybe .6floz.

Another pull will bring your in-cup total to approx 1floz or a touch more (or less) depending on how much the coffee puck in the PF holds on to as a saturated mass.

I need to do some measuring and check back.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 11, 2011, 05:00:14 PM
Don't get super crazy on the measuring, each coffee will be different based on grind and age and all the usual suspects. You might get a bit more in the preinfusion pull if the grind is loose and the coffee is older, etc.

I think the key is... for the PVL you get approx .5floz per lever pull. All the usual rules apply, manipulate the stream based on what you see and kill the shot based on what you see.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 11, 2011, 05:47:29 PM
Pre-infusion pumps aside on my La Peppina, I just do a single pull on both the La Peppina and the Gaggia Factory and I believe that the espresso brew ratios are close to 50 % (28 g espresso for 14 g coffee).


Did you mean 2 x 14gm dosed PF's for a total of 28gms dosed, or are you saying the La Peppina (which I know nothing about) will accept 28gms in its PF? Which sounds like time and space is being folded in that PF.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Warrior372 on November 11, 2011, 06:00:51 PM
I've been having an ongoing issue with the second pull/Fellini move.

I'm just not happy with it.

I don't like how the coffee looks, I don't like how the mechanics and feel of going in for a second pull feel, and I have growing doubts that it's adding anything more than shot volume.

I'm going to start experimenting but has anybody gone to single pull (doubles)?

Do you always do 2 full pulls? I have always found that 1.5 pulls always gave me the best results with my MCaL and currently give me the best results with the Peppina. I pre-infuse, let it get about 50% of the way up and go back down. Give that a try and see if you like what you get better. Every machine and everyone's palate are a little different, so you might think the results of a 1.5 pull are even worse. . . who knows.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 11, 2011, 06:22:35 PM
John, the PVL produces approx .5floz per pull. Every lever pulls differently in both subtle technique and volume.

Since you only own one lever that I know of, and that lever is a PVL, you need to do 1 x preinfusion pull followed by 2 x pulls to get a full extraction of approx 1floz. As I said earlier, every coffee, every grind setting, every age difference, roast level, humidity, phase of the moon and type of socks you are wearing will create some mior differences but...

It's .5floz per pull.

In case you need to hear it from someone else:

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/pavoni-pro-and-ponte-vecchio-export-t4863-10.html (http://www.home-barista.com/levers/pavoni-pro-and-ponte-vecchio-export-t4863-10.html)

"Some observations:

The Pavoni group is much more prone to overheat - it is much smaller than the Ponte Vecchio group, having no spring to contain. Also the taller, narrower PV group has a higher surface area:volume ratio, promoting cooling.

Shot volume of one pull of the Pavoni lever = two-three pulls of the Ponte Vecchio - depends on grind and dose in each. The Ponte Vecchio double basket (45 mm) appears to hold quite a bit more coffee than the 49 mm Pavoni. This is based on volume, not weight, and needs to be confirmed. If correct, this translates to a Ponte Vecchio cup that has considerable more coffee solids per unit volume of water. Thus the PV is pulling more of a ristretto (i.e. greater coffee:water ratio). To match this ratio on the Pavoni I need to stop the pull before it hits bottom.

The Pavoni baskets like their headroom - can't seem to get consistent results if I dose close to the top. At the dose that seems right, I need to stop the pull at about 1 oz espresso (and this happens to approximate the Ponte Vecchio coffee:water ratio of a two-pull, 1-oz shot). The difference here is that I can increase the dose in the Ponte Vecchio, which requires basically zero headroom, and get three or four pull shots that will near 2 oz (a traditional doppio.

Given I've spent two years with the PV and two weeks with the LP, these should be considered preliminary findings. I'll continue to post as I go..."
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: peter on November 11, 2011, 07:15:26 PM
I've been having an ongoing issue with the second pull/Fellini move.

My girlfriend used like it when I pulled the Fellini move.  But since this is a family site...   8)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: peter on November 11, 2011, 07:18:36 PM
Pre-infusion pumps aside on my La Peppina, I just do a single pull on both the La Peppina and the Gaggia Factory and I believe that the espresso brew ratios are close to 50 % (28 g espresso for 14 g coffee).


Did you mean 2 x 14gm dosed PF's for a total of 28gms dosed, or are you saying the La Peppina (which I know nothing about) will accept 28gms in its PF? Which sounds like time and space is being folded in that PF.

I'd guess Chris is saying he gets 28g of liquid from 14g of grounds.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 11, 2011, 08:08:24 PM
You are probably right Peter, I read it fast and misunderstood.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Warrior372 on November 11, 2011, 08:36:34 PM
That is what he meant. The Peppina PF fits 13.5-14g snugly.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on November 12, 2011, 02:52:33 AM
...
I'm going to start experimenting but has anybody gone to single pull (doubles)?

I only do single pulls.  Fellini was Italian; my machine is Swiss.  I typically run 15g coffee resulting in 25-29g of presso shot. 

B|Java
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 12, 2011, 06:00:25 AM
The 25-29g per single pull is what I'll use for experimenting.

If nothing else I'll learn some things..
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 12, 2011, 06:44:06 AM
That is what he meant. The Peppina PF fits 13.5-14g snugly.

Interesting..

The PVL holds 15g with no problem but my first measured single pull was 23g in the cup.

The Pep has a slightly smaller basket but slightly larger shot volume.

And the Swiss Miss is pulling 15g shots delivering ~27g pulls.

I'm totally SHOCKED I'm even looking at any of this to be honest. If anybody asked me my thoughts on anything close to these numbers I'd have told them none....I don't have any thoughts on espresso this side of 1.5oz per (pull). I'm not sure how this happened to me.  ???
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: BoldJava on November 12, 2011, 06:48:10 AM
...
I'm totally SHOCKED I'm even looking at any of this to be honest. If anybody asked me my thoughts on anything close to these numbers I'd have told them none....I don't have any thoughts on espresso this side of 1.5oz per (pull). I'm not sure how this happened to me.  ???

Levers will take you to the edge.  While I almost always measure weight, I am not judging by weight.  I am not looking for a boss hawg size shot.  I am strictly interested in how it tastes.  Then I am interested in the weight as a piece of data to help me find that shot again.

So much for my mental model of a 2-oz shot.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 12, 2011, 07:20:47 AM

So much for my mental model of a 2-oz shot.

No joke.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 12, 2011, 11:57:09 AM
About 30mins ago I pulled a shot of some darker roasted Tuktant that I sent to Charly as part of a trade.

15gms in the PF. A pre-infusion pull followed by two lever pulls. Espresso in the cup was 28gms.

Drank as a straight shot... Humungo rich chocolate, like a super high quality dark Belgian sipping chocolate, the kind that's served in Europe during the winter months. Kapow!
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 12, 2011, 01:02:08 PM

15gms in the PF. A pre-infusion pull followed by two lever pulls. Espresso in the cup was 28gms.

My guess is that ~22g came from the first pull..
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 12, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
Maybe 27gms came from that first lever pull. 

Maybe the final pull only puts out .5gms, or maybe .2gms... maybe that final pull is actually removing volume from the cup, acting like a lever pull time machine and reducing the espresso cup weight.

I don't know why I've pulled hundreds and hundreds of shots using the pre-infusion followed by 2 x lever pulls.

Maybe I should just start drinking preinfusion shots and forget about the follow-on 2 x lever pulls.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 12, 2011, 03:21:09 PM
Hahaha.. Negative pull pulls.  8)
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 12, 2011, 05:44:51 PM
If you do 10 pulls you convert the brown bean back into green.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: peter on November 12, 2011, 06:00:56 PM
Or, does the second pull do some pressure-profiling thing?
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 12, 2011, 06:12:11 PM
Between the three pulls (1 x preinfusion and 2 x pulls) you can manipulate the shot via pressure in a few ways. From the moment I begin the first downward movement I'm thinking pressure profile and the way it plays out depends on what I see from the bottomless PF.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on November 13, 2011, 11:46:50 AM
Here is what I did today..

I did several small pulls during (pre) preinfusion to take up all the space and deliver a max one pull shot. I'm calling it one and not counting the preinfusion routine.

I am not sure about this coffee as straight shots so I made a small milk ~4 total max. My only thought on this exercise was to see if a one pull shot like this would carry into the milk at this size.

Im going to do much more testing and maybe it will amount to nothing but with measuring the 23g single pull yesterday and finding this shot will punch through the milk on this size drink I've got to chase down some conclusions at this point.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: staylor on November 13, 2011, 11:54:33 AM
Chase on, that's the beauty of lever.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: milowebailey on March 17, 2012, 02:08:23 PM
This weekend I have been rebuilding and tuning my Sama Export.  I didn't mess with the pressurestat at first because the piston seals needed to be replaced and the steam wand needed some lube (replaced the o-rings in that too). 

I was working on getting my technique down on the Sama and just wasn't happy with the results of either the shot or the steaming and I'd heard the Sama was a steam engine.  I don't have a steam pressure gage, so I ordered one today.

Combination pressure and temperature as I hope to use it also to check portafilter output temperature. 

(http://s3.pexsupply.com/images/products/large/lw1810hr-4.jpg)

Since I was considering messing with the pressurestat I figured I'd take a look under the hood and see how it's adjusted, and I couldn't help but adjust it.  I went to far the first time and had to back it off a little.  Wow what a difference.  Once I get the pressure gauge I'll set it to ~1 bar as per the recommendation of Orphan Espresso.

I also plan to pull some more shots with it tomorrow.... I'm sure I'll need to make adjustments on coffee weight and grind, but I'm guessing this was a huge part of my problem with this machine.

Question for the Sama, Ponte Vecchio users.  What coffee dose do you typically use?  I've been using 13, 14 and 15 grams.

Also same question for the La Pavoni users, as that machine in next for tuning.

thanks
-milowebailey
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: Tex on March 23, 2012, 12:12:14 PM
I probably already know the answer, but I have to ask; "Why use a pressure gauge when a thermocouple is so easy to mount?"
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: milowebailey on March 23, 2012, 03:08:25 PM
Great news on the Export.  I'm sure you'll have fun with it.

I usually dose fourteen to sixteen grams on the Gaggia Factory with the La Pavoni Millennium 51 mm group.

As I probably said in another thread, I've been dosing the Factory with 16 grams in the double basket and really liking the results with Staylor's Haro Sana, Handsome Coffee Roaster's Fisticuffs espresso and Sight Glass Owls Howl espresso.

How's 16 grams treating you, Milo?
didn't use it yesterday, and this morning I was in a hurry so pulled one shot really quick... Sama wasn't hot yet.... so a little sour.  Tomorrow morning I'll hit it hard.  16 grams it will be.
Title: Re: Lever pull basics
Post by: John F on March 23, 2012, 05:58:19 PM
Question for the Sama, Ponte Vecchio users.  What coffee dose do you typically use?  I've been using 13, 14 and 15 grams.


When I measured it I was often using 14-15g.

I hardly measure any more because I've got my own little routine but for the dose portion of things I overfill the basket and use my tamper to knock/settle the coffee with the portafilter over the sink until I like the way it looks then tamp. I'm pretty sure this still gets me ~14-15g on average but if I get the occasional 13 or 16g it all works out in the wash...the milk wash.  ;)